Would like an opinion

[Christian]

I posted this here cause I wanted the attention of the Goreans who come to the board... if there are any here... One of my goals ahs always been to write a Gor screenplay. I have found the books are an incredible space fantasy and full of great science fiction concepts. I've never been big on the rooms or the role play setting. (after all, that's why we table top Gamers have Dark Sun; the D&D Gorean-like world.)

I've finally fleshed out a bit of the plot and I thought I'd post it here for comment and critism. I see Gor as 'Planet of the Apes' meets 'Spartacus'...

Open with the Anazi. Drought and famine have devestated a great civilization. All around evidence of in fighting and canabalism are evident. One night a star appears in the sky, a bright flash as a group of Anazi who have been beating on lesser tribesmen look on as a huge ship lands in the desert. Out emerge huge insectoid like creatures. The creatures chitter away in their own language. They are amazed at the lengths such a primitive culture will go to survive. Mankind having such potential but hindered by the need for personal gain interest these aliens as they forcefully round up the remaining Anazi. Of course the Anazi fight back, killing one of the giant insects. One creature comments that due to the threat of starvation and acts of canibalism, this group is composed of the Alpha stock, meaning the weaker of the group have bene weeded out. Another creature, the leader as it were comments that this is exactly what the Preist Kings need in their long drawn out agressive war with the Kurii.

Fade to open Credits: A montage of old photos of pirate ships and direlect ships with notes written about being found abandoned at sea. Hand written parchments that talk about giant insects, flashes of news paper articles about missing persons, alien abductions and even pictures of Big Foot. Even a grainy home camera recording of Big Foot fighting one of the Priest Kings in a forrest.

Jump to the present day. Professor Tarl Cabot has been sent for from Bristol to come to the American desert to examine something never before seen by anyone. In an excavation of an ancient Anazi temple, the body of an insectoid is found. Close examination shows that the skin is armor plating and that deep within the insectoid body is another humanoid form.Once the armor has been cut through, they find a classic grey alien within. Not knowing what to make of it all, Cabot and his associates keep a lid on this and sleep on it. The opening of the armor emits a distress call to a nearby King Preist outpost by Saturn's moon, IO. They dispatch a ship. Which due to faster than light hevay gravit drives can make the journey in hours. Explaining how the Priest Kings have always been here even though they from a far off galaxy somewhere. (The books don't give much in way of background so science fiction liberties are taken.)

The Priest Kings arrive on Earth to reclaim the body of their fallen. (This is more of a culture thing where they leave nothing behind, no bodies, no technology, it's how they have remained hidden all these thousands of years.) In the process, Cabot is capture and taken with them.

While in the slave pens, Tarl Cabot becomes a defacto leader, someone who takes charge of a situation and the other abducties can center around. Here Tarl meets pirates and native American Indians, all in their prime and not having aged a day since their abduction. Tarl theories this is cause of the faster than light propulsion systems of the alien ships; it creates a field which holds everything organic in check. The Priest Kings notice Tarl's leadership abilities and single him out for combat with one of their chosen human champions. Tarl fights for his life in an arena, defeating his opponet. Tarl doesn't kill the champion but as he walks away the champion leaps up to stab Tarl in the back! Tarl turns and through instinct slays his opponet. This proves even more of the Priest Kings theories that man is capable of so much yet is hindered by that evolutionary trait of self preservation. They take Tarl to Gor with another bushell of human slaves.

Tarl is given to a Slaver who also sees the potential in him. Quickly Tarl learns to fit in through survival. He eventually wins his freedom and through his travels finds a human woman whom is an abductee from his time period. Together they wander the lands of Gor. All the while Tarl knows of the true secret of the Priest Kings... the true species which lingers inside their insectoid armor shells.

[Nubile2000]

 :rotfl:wow!  I can say that Not One Gorean would go for this, but being open minded, and very much liking You're reads that You have allowed us to read from time to time. I can only say that You have a very hugh imagionation. It is most interesting that You would take the time to write such ideas, but I would wager to say that Most that do live/role play the phylosopy of the books of the Creator *John Norman* that it wouldn't be brought into any form of consideration, beings that it and You are more far fetched then John Norman Himself..

[Christian]

But this is what's in the books.... the King Priests are aliens... they fight an intergalatic war... aliens abduct humans from Earth... Gor can't been seen cause it's cloaked, I really don't make up much stuff... So most Goreans just ignore the backstory and remain as ignorant as tehir characters would be?

But honestly thank you for your comments... I appreciate that...

[Nubile2000]

I can say that I have heard someone say this Christian, about the writer and His writings and quote Him with this..:

(( as we look at JN's works and dissect them....and in doing so we have a tendency to dwell on "what isn't there" rather than accepting what is there on face value....it is easier to comprehend and understand when we can equate something to a different something that is within our comfortable knowledge base....ie, the comparisons to ancient histories....))

Also with that, this was stated, and for the lack of better saying it, Im going to quote this as well:

Too, we always have to keep in mind that JN wrote with a bias of the current times in that his works portray almost an about face to what was currently happening in the world in which he lived....hence, some might reason, the unseeming jumps he takes in the series.....granted, he is not the world's most riveting author and he has stated more than once that he did not set out to create some sort of dogma to be followed....The man is also an historian and probably had more than enough knowledge on which to base his perfect world...

Was his thinking flawed? If we are judging the historical accuracy of his works...then perhaps that statement might have some validity. But as works of fiction, there is creative license to pick and choose how he wished something to be portrayed...something that we, as roleplayers, try to take advantage of all too often and in doing so end up "rewriting history", for lack of a better phrase, and this ends up diluting the original intent.....which is oft times lost to individual perceptions.....

We also have to remember that the inhabitants of Gor were selected with an exacting precision by the Priest Kings for their "laboratory" world, so the genetic idiosyncracies of the earth counterparts does not come into play...they were "weeded" out so to speak...it's called selective breeding in modern day terms...

Did he leave certain things out...yes...I believe he did so on purpose for those things did not fit into his vision of his perfect society....and that is what he gave us..his vision of an alternative society....))

so with that said, I feel that taking Your version would be igniting a new wave, and although thats not a bad thing,  but its Your perspective and one that Most Those that (play) Gor around in rooms and even out might see this as a change that He the writer Himself did not do, and also thinks that John Norman as a writer began really loosing even His own ideals of the entire series when it came to the last books, example (Prize of Gor) I believe His age crept up on Him, but non the less, many like Me savor the flavor He depicted throughout His.........series.

Yes I can also agree, that the charactors can be *how to say* not real various in imagionation, but remember these ideals of Gor were written back in the sixties when Men were the money providers, and that doesn't hold true today as so much that the entire intent could posibably remain the same, although I know many that would like to believe it does, and thay are the true beasts of Earth.



(((The bottomline is Gor is the brainchild of Dr. Lange, aka John Norman, and only he knows his true intent...)))

[Christian]

Nubile2000 I think you miss the point... JN did write just about everything I wrote about. I don't really understand your point? Selective breeding yes... I picked up on that as well as other themes inbedded in the litterature but there's aliens and starships, wars and science. There are robots and constructs like the Blue Flames... and in the most recent novel, The 28th book, Kur of Gor set on one of the "Steel Worlds" (artificial space habitats) of the Kurii. Basically space stations.

I feel that taking Your version would be igniting a new wave, and although thats not a bad thing,  but its Your perspective and one that Most Those that (play) Gor around in rooms and even out might see this as a change that He the writer Himself did not do

How can this be? I wrote about themes and plots right out of the novels. It's not my interperation, it's right there in print, I just borrowed from it and organized it into a script. I own first printing Boris Vallejo covers for the first 14 and subsequent printings of 15-28. I take certain liberties yes, but the main bulk of that is all him. I just don't understand... and believe me you're not the first... I don't understand how so called Goreans can just treat the world of Gor like a salad bar? It's like with anything else, if you ignore enough of what makes it the world it's set in, then it stops being the base setting.

So you're honestly telling me, the online community simply ignores a great amount of novel history to suit their own needs? This I can understand and respect if that's the case.  He brings all these ancient civilizations together and bases each Gorean group on something polucked from human history.

Lifted from Wiki-Pedia:

Early entries in the series were plot-driven space opera adventures, but later entries grew more philosophical and sexual. Many sub-plots run the course of several books and tie back to the main plot in later books. Some of these plots begin in the first book, but most are underway in the first ten books.

And then more...

The flora, fauna, and customs of Gor are intricately detailed. John Norman—the pseudonym of Dr. John Lange, a professor of Philosophy and a classical scholar—often delights in ethnography, populating his planet with the equivalents of Roman, Greek, Native American, Viking, and other cultures. In the novels these various population groups are transplants from Earth brought there by space-craft through the behind the scenes rulers of Gor, the Priest-Kings, an extraterrestrial species of insectoid appearance. The Gorean humans are permitted advanced architectural and medical skills (including life extension), but are forced to remain primitive in the fields of transportation and weaponry (at approximately the level of Classical Mediterranean civilization) due to restrictions on technology imposed by the Priest-Kings. This limitation is imposed in order to ensure the safety of both the Priest-Kings as well as the other indigenous and transplanted beings on Gor, who would otherwise possibly come to harm due to humans' belligerent tendencies.
The planet Gor has lower gravity than Earth's (which allows for the existence of large flying creatures, and tall towers connected by aerial bridges in the cities), and would have an even lower gravity if not for the technology of the Priest-Kings. The known geography of Gor consists mainly of the western seaboard of a continent which runs from the Arctic in the north to south of the equator, with the Thassa Ocean to the west, and the Voltai mountain range forming an eastern boundary at many latitudes. There are also offshore islands in the ocean, and some relatively sparsely-settled plains to the east of the Voltai. The word "Gor" itself means "home stone" in the Gorean language (the native language of the city-states in the northern temperate region, and a widely-spoken lingua franca in many other areas).

And case in point, Doctor Lange was qouted in Starlog Magazine as saying, "There's people who live this... what are they sick?" So in that being, he acknowledges that the whole concept has grown beyond what it was intended for. So to say only he knows his true intent is impossible it's evidently grown beyond him and he has no say in it, as people just take and leave what they want of his work.

[Nubile2000]

I may have mis understood Your point in saying while I was reading too, but when I read that the Priest Kings go to Earth. I got lost. Then something about the remains of the alian having what held like bones of a human within it. As far as I have read, The Priest Kings never went to Earth, they had others do that for them. I mean, they might have been the Ones  driving the ships, but I dont recall where or what book actually says that they actually went to Earth. I recall where others went to gather the chosen barbarian girls, so maybe this is where Im getting confusing in all this. sorry for being off on the wrong path here, cause I really would like to get on the same page

[Christian]

Good point!

First let me sasy, I am enjoying this exchange completely and look forward to each new comment and reply.

I think it glosses over who picks up the humans.... I know Kurri are on Earth cause that's where Gor says we get the Big Foot legends from. The Priest Kings stepping foot on terran soil is all creative lisecence from my end. It's a story element which drives the plot.

They do come to Earth, they don't have any real minions and they certainly don't even trust the select few humans who deal with them on Gor; so I doubt they would have used them. In today's modern world I doubt they could pull off coming down here but thousands of years ago. However, their whole deal is to conqour Earth and add it to their own Intergalactic Empire, so it makes sense they would have come and survyed the new real estate.

The explanation of how their ships work, that's creative lisecense once more. With the location of the planet on the other side of Earth; I believe explained as the dirrect opposite retotation around the Sun, how would they survive? Stasis seems too... stock and over used in sci-fi so I lend realistic particle physics, something educated to an otherwise intellegent story written by an educated man. Because I really do believe the earlier books are educated, they're intellegent, it's like Edgar Rice Burrough's, John Carter, War Lord of Mars.

So I took what was given us in print... not changing a thing but adding some filler between plot points which are glossed over to propell a story. Cause remember, this is going to be a serious pitch to a studio, Paramount Pictures has held the movie rights to the Gor books for some time now it seems. This happens when a book deal is finalized in most cases when a series becomes popular, movie rights are generated and sold, sometimes never used in most cases.

Let's face it... the rooms are not the books nor do they come anywhere close. I've sat in some rooms over the years. I'll admit I've spent maybe a week in one or two as an actual player. The online world... not for me. But what I see in the majority of the rooms comes nowhere close to the nature of the printed page. Yet they cherish the so-called printed page so much, they rever it like the Bible... They change or ignore parts of it to suit their whims, and get defensive whenever someone challenges the status quo.

If you're going to live something... as in some cases some actually claim they do here, then you do open yourself up for a challenge and you should expect it. What the Gorean Community needs is someone like me, -laughs- I could take this and make it the next Scientology!

I may not agree or like how muddled online has become by the premise has always interested me. For a time I thought the books were done and had even debated looking into buying the whole property from whomever owned the righst currently. It is an entirely under rated and under used sci-fi gold mine.

[Nubile2000]

Good point!

First let me sasy, I am enjoying this exchange completely and look forward to each new comment and reply.


=Thank You, personally, alot of people do not get involved in the verbal inter action of "Gor" because to most its like getting into an argument between government and religion, and most do not even wish to tred the waters in those two topics, well knowing that at some point someone's going to start pulling their hair out trying to get others to see Their point of view, when we are all going to have our own for what ever reason =that got us there in the first place.



I think it glosses over who picks up the humans.... I know Kurri are on Earth cause that's where Gor says we get the Big Foot legends from. The Priest Kings stepping foot on terran soil is all creative lisecence from my end. It's a story element which drives the plot.


=Now that we got this going on here, I'm bout to do some intensive research, because Im sitting here thinking it had to do with the Inititates that were representatives of The Priest Kings, therefore thinking that these were the Only One's that The PK's worked with, following with what You stated. Also, I remember reading that The Priest Kings never came out of their cavish domains, but in all ways of thinking, They had to get there somehow, or did they just sprout, (LOL) Then through time started to begin some form of intelligence and what then.. raises a brow to You..



They do come to Earth, they don't have any real minions and they certainly don't even trust the select few humans who deal with them on Gor; so I doubt they would have used them. In today's modern world I doubt they could pull off coming down here but thousands of years ago. However, their whole deal is to conqour Earth and add it to their own Intergalactic Empire, so it makes sense they would have come and survyed the new real estate.

The explanation of how their ships work, that's creative lisecense once more. With the location of the planet on the other side of Earth; I believe explained as the dirrect opposite retotation around the Sun, how would they survive? Stasis seems too... stock and over used in sci-fi so I lend realistic particle physics, something educated to an otherwise intellegent story written by an educated man. Because I really do believe the earlier books are educated, they're intellegent, it's like Edgar Rice Burrough's, John Carter, War Lord of Mars.


=The early books were basic sword and sorcery stories, and very derivative of the Martian novels of Edgar Rice Burroughs and the Conan work of Robert E. Howard. (By about book seven), the series grew increasingly erotic, with more and more emphasis on the BDSM slave culture on Gor. The books focussed more and more on how women were shanghaied and kidnapped from their native worlds, (including Earth), to be transported to Gor, where they were cast into slavery. In the books, the women grow to like their slavery. The few voices of feminism are quickly suppressed. The whole culture and economy of Gor was focussed on the slave trade. ((The author faced an increasingly angry feminist backlash)), and eventually his publishers cancelled his contract for any more Gor novels. However, the Master-Slave relationships in the books had a profound influence on the modern BDSM culture and Role Playing game circuit. A number of Gorian Internet communities arose, and a surprisingly large number of BDSM fetish groups actively use the Gor system in their master-slave relationships. This has spilled over in some groups into brainwashing, social control and cultism, rather than an occasional harmless pastime. In May 2006, a Gor cult slave was walked to her local butcher’s shop on dog leash. Slave musings reflect on the slave’s willingness to submit to a stronger force as being natural to all. . There is a casual pride in abandonment of freedom and responsibility here. This is where I believe we are getting the contradictions in most aspects of the books and John Norman Himself. To me, The arena of B-D-S&M  and the philosophy of Norman are this. Most people don't like change, and when woman started wanted equil rights if not more to be recognized, He saw this as a threat, and well He should, He saw the the future of what was about to occur (IMO) and wanted to somehow write a theory on what should take place to make what He saw as a new start *fresh, it You will* To make the ever changing world of woman go back into their places where Men were the Prime Factor, then woman as His mate/companion/mother figure/slut/.....ect  ect, but not as an equil or Gor Forbid Higher factor of a Man's world.

=B-D-S&M go's way beyond this mind frame in ways that it is more baised on control emphasis, and bondage, pain, and alot of other sick play comes into action at times, that to me doesn't reguard the Honor, Dignity, Honesty and Brotherhood that I (IMO) John Norman wished to provide. This is where I think, *In His Words, replies saying that He might not believe how others took to His writings and begun living them out, which has now become cultic.




So I took what was given us in print... not changing a thing but adding some filler between plot points which are glossed over to propell a story. Cause remember, this is going to be a serious pitch to a studio, Paramount Pictures has held the movie rights to the Gor books for some time now it seems. This happens when a book deal is finalized in most cases when a series becomes popular, movie rights are generated and sold, sometimes never used in most cases.


=I don't even want to go into how sad the movies are! shakes head, and am very happy knowing that most people that have read the books are not portraying the poor productions of what was filmed, I do realize though that there are some that tend to find the easiest way to get a perspective of the arena and become involved with the playground, and again I'm not going to speak of how sad that is either and thinks this is where those and them devide in role play.




Let's face it... the rooms are not the books nor do they come anywhere close. I've sat in some rooms over the years. I'll admit I've spent maybe a week in one or two as an actual player. The online world... not for me. But what I see in the majority of the rooms comes nowhere close to the nature of the printed page. Yet they cherish the so-called printed page so much, they rever it like the Bible... They change or ignore parts of it to suit their whims, and get defensive whenever someone challenges the status quo.

If you're going to live something... as in some cases some actually claim they do here, then you do open yourself up for a challenge and you should expect it. What the Gorean Community needs is someone like me, -laughs- I could take this and make it the next Scientology!


=I'm sure You could, You do seem to gain mentally alot of the vertual perspective of whats written in Your reads, and You won't be the first to try and challange the results of the finds.



I may not agree or like how muddled online has become by the premise has always interested me. For a time I thought the books were done and had even debated looking into buying the whole property from whomever owned the righst currently. It is an entirely under rated and under used sci-fi gold mine.


=Laughs, bravo! I don't like alot of what I'm seeing either, but I learned along time ago, your not going to like everyone that you're in the playground with, so You start seperating who You choose to play with, *especially if its a perticular game You like playing!*
And I do have the complete series, most, the very first published *where mind You, the later copies published have been altered which is an entirely new topic*. Also have like 13 books that are duplicates. They are not in order, but non the less, His first versions that I'm thinking about gifting to Someone that has an open mind....

[Christian]

I grew up with Conan the Barbarian comics (the old Barry Windsor Smith drawn ones). I read Robert E. Howard, cause his works tied into the Call of Cthulhu universe by H.P. Lovecraft, same as the martian stories by Burroughs along with their comic book counter-parts. The whole genere was always erotic, the scantly clad women, the huge dominating men, even the very first Star Wars promo poster refelcts this in the art. Luke holding his lightsaber up in the air, Leia on her knees, arm wrapped around his leg. The omnisict evil of Lord Vader in the thin background backdrop. These stories carried a sense of eroticism, wether or not anyone realises it.

There was a resurgance with this genre in the 90's with Hercules and Xena. It's why I love Wonder Woman so damn much...

Her back story and post-crisis 80's revamp was full of these elements especially in the George Perez run. Even today, you have Gail Simmons' Wonder Woman arc full of undertones of women's place in the world... How Ares doesn't loathe her but he loves her. He had her mother, Hypolytta in every sense of the word and now he wanted to have her daughter, Diana (Wonder Woman)!

So back to the Gor topic. The early books had excellent story telling and pace; the topic was dead on with the genre of the time. It's much like the Dune books, Frank Herbert didn't go nuts like people like to believe; just as his works progressed his fanbase lost touch with reality and through his writing he showed just how much he wanted his property to die.

Point being I think fans, Goreans for lack of better words are their worst enemies. As far as taking a series of books and turning it into online text based RP world and other online venues; I can get behind that. We do that everyday in my world with role playing offline with games based on comics and major motion pictures and television shows. However when you get people out there who treat this like a religion and a way of life... well that's just ridiculous. I don't get it? I know we're all looking for something and we tend to find the answer in the subjects around us but really... a religion and a way of living their life?  That's as if I was to say I'm really a 3^rd level Dread Necromancer and when I reach level 20 if I sacrafice Erin, I'll become a Lich-born sorcerer! However, Star Wars and Star Treks have their fair share of people who take it to far... what with the Jedi religion becoming an official church over in the UK with people and some other claiming they've started their very own Star Fleet... I meet these people all the time and the only thing I can tell them is, "This is why no one takes us seriously in these fan based niches."

So I won't even get into the whole offline subculture. I'm trying to show it can be a marketable property outside of books. There's a Gor tv-show every Friday on Starz, it's called Spartacus, Blood and Sand... I mean that's the same world culture that was heavy in the Gor books, the same mentality.

They couldn't have cancelled his contract for long, cause they've been publishing his books, new ones even today. One is due out in 2010 in a few months. Everyone else bites off Gor, it's so evident. Dungeons & Dragons did it with the world, Dark Sun, Edgar Rice Burroughs was exploring this toipc way back in 1912 with John Carter, War Lord of Mars and thus borrows from Gor in later incarnation, DC Comics explored this culture and subject in the 70's with the comic, The Warlord, Marvel spearheaded the comic movement in the 70's with Conan the Barbarian, Kull the Conqouer (Yes the Kevin Sorbo movie was a Conan spin off and a comic film!) and Red Sonja, She Devil with a Sword (Leaving Red Sonja as a prime example of how not every woman is enslaved or submissive in a barbaric world, yet she does indeed answer to one man on all those levels, ie Conan.)

Now, if all these can gain their source material inspiration from some Gor works by 'Norman' then why can't the main works, the actual source material survive on its own in comics or movies? It's more than sex, BDSM and women in chains... that's merely the backdrop, that's what makes it erotic... it's very much a sword and sorcery, Martian high adventure, swash buckling action on an alien barbaric world... full of mystery, monster and suspense.

[Nubile2000]

Well to quite point blank here, I can't argue with any of that, nor would I even find the words to try... Christian, BTW is my Son's name! Yes, we can't forget about the panthers, or otherwise notably known as the amazon woman. And truly, as far as a religion, that was just introjectory in my way of saying that what I have found, is that Goreans Do Not desire to begin debate with others, some that even call themselves Gorean, because Like Carl Talbot, Each one is mightier then the other, and someone has to be the winner and the other the looser. Funny thing is No One plays His part...

[Christian]

Well it's not meant to set an arguement it's just about fact. The genre existed long before Gor and will long after. Did 'Norman' start it? No, but he was there. He's contributed to it.

Now when I read this, all I can say is...

And truly, as far as a religion, that was just introjectory in my way of saying that what I have found, is that Goreans Do Not desire to begin debate with others, some that even call themselves Gorean, because Like Carl Talbot, Each one is mightier then the other, and someone has to be the winner and the other the looser

It sounds like Gor is full of people who can't handle real life or their short comings in real life and thus have developed a Napoleon complex. Which is a colloquial term describing an alleged type of inferiority complex which is said to affect some people, especially men, who are short in stature. The term is also used more generally to describe people who are driven by a perceived handicap to overcompensate in other aspects of their lives. This term is also known as Napoleon syndrome, Short Man syndrome, Little Man syndrome and Small Man syndrome.

So they create a world where they can be King, where they can't be challeneged, where women do fall at their feet. As this discussion evolves all I can do is... feel sorry for most of these people who need something in life to latch onto so much, they wrap themselves in a fiction so... out of touch with society because in theory they can't survive in established society and require one that meets their own needs thus making it easier.

The truly dominant man is the one who needed say he's dominant, who doesn't need some sort of status weather it be a capped name or some article of clothing like a crown or a sceptor; he simply moves aong everyday and continues to do his thing... If more men would do that for real... they wouldn't need some world of fiction to compensate for whatever fullfillment they're missing in life.

I shouldn't be writing a script... I should be writing a Physcological Thesis or Paper.

[Nubile2000]

*Just laughs* Well, I did enjoy the run on the topic and it did give me some laughs, as well as truth!!. And You may be very well right on the syndrome affect, for I have personally met in real time some of those *A Typical* humans.  Problem is, none of them would admit to needing any help from anyone!

[Christian]

Asking for help is sometimes a huge problem for people. It's hard and also is one of many people's short comings...

[Christian]

Also thought I take a snap shot since I'm snowed in today... a bit of my sword and sorcery/ Martian adventures comics...

[Nubile2000]

Dang, is that Your House, or do You actually have a store?